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Joe Tidy - Five Way Interview

Joe Tidy is the BBC’s first Cyber Correspondent and the author of Ctrl+ Alt+ Chaos: How Teenage Hackers Hijack the Internet. Joe has built a reputation for investigating the darker sides of the internet and how technology affects the way people live. He is known for tracking down and speaking directly to hackers and criminals who are responsible for some of the biggest cyber incidents of recent times. His top six BBC News documentaries, including The Teenage Millionaire Hacker and The Russian Hackers, have garnered more than 7 million views. Before joining the BBC, he was a correspondent at Sky News where he regularly reported on technology and began his decade-long obsession with cybercrime after reporting on the infamous 2014 Christmas day Lizard Squad attack.

Why this book?

This book charts the life of crime of, what I think is, the most hated hacker in history. I interviewed Julius Kivimaki back in 2014 when he was the figurehead for Lizard Squad - a notorious attention-seeking teen hacker group. It was my first ever cyber story and started my decade-long obsession with cybercrime. Kivimaki came back into the headlines in 2022, linked to the enormously and incredibly cruel hack of a therapy company in Finland. I wanted to know how a computer game playing kid became one of the most wanted cyber criminals in the world - and what we can learn about teenage hacking culture in the process. 

Why do you think the attitude of hackers has changed so much in the last 30 or so years?

In my book I settle on a couple of theories. Firstly - the rise of Twitter (now X). This social network, used by groups like Anonymous in the 2010s, showed that hackers can become internet famous. I also think Bitcoin has played a part in boosting the motivation of these kids and young people to turn down the dark side of hacking for monetary gain. There was also a strange period of time in the 2010s when internet culture in general turned pretty dark and misogynistic with movements like Gamer Gate. This could have played a part too.

Are justice systems starting to take the crimes of underage hackers more seriously?

Not really. I argue in my book that the cyber security world and society in general still doesn’t know how to handle teenagers who get caught up in cybercrime. There is a mixed bag of responses that doesn't make a lot of sense. In some jurisdictions they are punished with harsh sentences. In others - in fact most - they are given a slap on the wrist and often reoffend as we see time and again in my book. But the issue is so complex, and it is hard to judge what is right. Police and judges are in a difficult position of trying not to ruin kids' lives for carrying out sometimes minor crimes - but also need to come down hard on the kids that seem to feel invincible. 

What’s next?

For me personally I am planning on digging further into the international element. Is there a difference between the pathways of Russian/ Chinese/ North Korean hackers? Or is the western journey universal? I'm hoping to get into some of this in a podcast series I am currently making with the BBC.

What’s exciting you at the moment?

Launching a book! It's been a phenomenal experience. It's a very solitary thing to do and there were many times in the last year when I would be typing away late at night not knowing if anyone would be interested in the story and topic I am obsessed with. But so far the response has been amazing and it is very exciting!

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